Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Thaumagurist* » 05 Jan 2009 16:50

Alan Partridge
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Sun Tzu And wasn't there a classic case of the cup run totally destroying a pretty decent league position in amongst them ?


I seem to remember Reading were in a decent position at the start of 1998 (i.e. well above the relegation zone) and were confident of staying up. Then our cup runs happened and the rest is history.....


So that had nothing to do with two incompetent managers, a weak squad and a host of failed signings and loans then.


I seem to remember we tried to get in a number of signings and loans because we had a number of bad injuries. Asaba was injured, so was Trevor Morley. We didn't even have a fit goalkeeper when Tommy Burns took over that he had to go and buy Scott Howie.

Presumably the number of games played had an effect on the injury situation.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by eleventh earl of mar » 05 Jan 2009 16:54

Sun Tzu
eleventh earl of mar Ideal world we'd have picked the first team. Doyle gets a bad knock, Ivar gets sent off and we'd have a lot of fans unhappy again....

Ideal world would be that Doyle plays, scores and we win. How can you sau ib an ideal world Doyle would get injured?


I didn't.

HTH

Sun Tzu
Victor Meldrew Reading didn't pick anywhere near their strongest side and reading through posts on here a lot of fans are not happy.


Reading fans not being happy with something doesn't make it wrong....

Ideal world we'd have picked the first team. Doyle gets a bad knock, Ivar gets sent off and we'd have a lot of fans unhappy again....

Coppell is paid to make these decisions, he's never hidden is approach and there are enough examples of cup runs derailing league ambitions to suggest it is at least a reasonable approach.

As has been mentioned before, Coppell has delivered unprecedented league success doing things his way. Anyone fancy telling him he's wrong (even if he is ??)


You typed this did you not?

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Victor Meldrew » 05 Jan 2009 16:59

Mr Angry In answer to Victor Meldrew, first sorry I haven't replied before - work gets in the way at times!

As for Stanley Matthews - I read somewhere that Alan Ball was told as an apprentice at Blackpool that he HAD to pass to the great mans feet, as he wouldn't run for the ball; when Alan Ball passed it ahead of Matthews, the old man just stood on the spot, pointed at his feet screaming "HERE!!!" to which Alan Ball's reply was "F**K Off you Old C**t"; so much for "playing" top flight football at 50!

In my original post I didn't say there were vast numbers of players playing TOP FLIGHT football into their late 30's; you added that bit. But for the record, as an example, how old was Sheringham when he quit? How old is Gary Speed? And anyway, players at the top level earn so much these days that they have no need to carry on playing beyond 35 (the official age for a player to be able to claim his pension) if they don't want to.

You also seemed to ignore my point about players playing on with injuries because of cortisone injections; nowadays, the MAXIMUM number of cortisone injections a player can have IN HIS CAREER is 3 - even as late as the 1980's it was not uncommon for players to get 2 or 3 a season. I repeat, many of those players from those days are crippled as a result of this. Today, players are rested far more and generally won't play with anything beyond a relatively minor niggle. For those players who do so (and John Terry comes to mind) I would bet that he doesn't continue beyond 35.

You also failed to address the point about fringe players having more incentive to do well in these sorts of games than established players.

As for how football has changed, well the obvious way is that clubs have much bigger squads than they did, and a Manager needs to man-manage his players the best way he can; rotation is one way, as is giving fringe players the chance in cup games. How would Coppell have known that A Fed could step up to the plate if needed if he hadn't excelled in the Cup games over the last couple of seasons? He might have been able to guess that he might, by reserve games (I bet he learnt loads watching him against Woking earlier this season!) or in training, but seeing him in competitive matches against teams like Man Utd and Spurs showed he could do the job.

The other way that football has changed is the vast amounts of TV money that a club can get by being in the Premiership; you and others who are frothing at the mouth about Coppell's decision seem to dismiss this with a jolly wave of the hand, but the reality is that the money made from getting into - and staying in - the Prem is massively more than winning the FA Cup, let alone getting to the 4th round. I'm sure there are Millwall and Southampton fans who will say that there greatest footballing moment was watching their team at The Millenium Stadium on Cup Final day, even if they were both humiliated on the day, and thats fine and dandy. But will those grand day's out help their clubs to long term survival?? I'm sure Coppell is GUTTED at a few fans feeling upset at being knocked out of the FA Cup in the 3rd Round, as they can't brag about the cup run, or have no reason to have more than a passing interest in the cup draws, but he has a far bigger responsibility than that.

Finally, just because someone has a different opinion to yourself, or who happans to agree with someone who you constantly disagree with, that is no reason to start calling people names. So grow up.


You make a very poor case for the many players that are supposedly still playing in their late 30s and came up with just the two-not many really in an era when medical advice is so good.

Regarding the great Matthews-read his autobiography and see how hard he trained to keep as fit as he did.Also he was so good that toughtackling defenders hardly ever touched him.

Again you use modern hype when saying that clubs have much larger squads-no they don't.
In years gone by even little Reading had 11 further fully professional players as reserves plus a few more-it could be argued that clubs now have players better equipped to step up to the first team but there were always plenty of players ready to be brought in.

The matter of cortisone injections comes within the whole area of medicare and doesn't warrant further discussion although I do fear the damage caused by the modern magic spray could well produce a new wave of Tommy Smiths.

As for the incentive of the lesser players I addressed that point much earlier.Much as I would like to believe that players were chaffing at the bit to stake a claim for a first team place by all accounts that was not apparent on Saturday and regrettably your romantic view of modern players (and mine before growing older and more cynical) that they are just waiting to grab an opportunity is a rarity rather than the norm.

Ah money.
You quite rightly say that there is now much more around in football and in particular for being in the Premier League.
If it was so important then why the f*** didn't the club spend some of it to make a decent fist of staying there last season?

As for "growing up" hopefully that will never happen and I will continue to care about my and your football team-in the matter of the FA Cup I think our club has brought the competition into disrepute and I don't like it.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by rabidbee » 05 Jan 2009 17:03

Thaumagurist*
Sun Tzu And wasn't there a classic case of the cup run totally destroying a pretty decent league position in amongst them ?


I seem to remember Reading were in a decent position at the start of 1998 (i.e. well above the relegation zone) and were confident of staying up. Then our cup runs happened and the rest is history.....


http://stats.football365.com/1998/ENG/t ... ading.html

Actually, no; we were pretty pish for most of that season. However, a run of one defeat in eight matches between the end of November and the middle of January left us in 14th. That spell broadly corresponds to a long hiatus from the cups, but I'm not entirely sure that that's relevant.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Sun Tzu » 05 Jan 2009 17:25

eleventh earl of mar You typed this did you not?


Indeed.

There are two different sentences. Once the full stop has been employed the 'ideal world' scenario has ended and the potential impact of that scenario is being discussed.


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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Thaumagurist* » 05 Jan 2009 17:31

Sun Tzu
eleventh earl of mar You typed this did you not?


Indeed.

There are two different sentences. Once the full stop has been employed the 'ideal world' scenario has ended and the potential impact of that scenario is being discussed.

I concur, that's how I read what you typed too.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by John 3:16 » 05 Jan 2009 17:39

Victor Meldrew The FA Cup is a competition that we have a chance of winning,The Premier League we never had a chance of winning.
Last season Cardiff made the final and Millwall did a few years ago so both of these clubs were in with a great chance of winning the most famous competition in the history of football let alone the income from a cup run and the kudos of playing in Europe.

I can understand rotation by the big clubs because not only do they have 38 league games but normally at least around 12 Champs League and possibly 10 or so more if they reach the later stages of the two cup competitions and as all their players are internationals there can be up to about 12 fixtures or so especially in a World or European Cup year so top players could play around 70 or so games in a year.
Take somebody like Rosenior,Armstrong or Harper.
If they only play league games that's a maximum of 46 in a season and these are very fit young men and don't forget our league games don't have the intensity of a European cup final or a world cup semi.
So on the grounds of fitness and keeping players fresh I don't see that even 5 cup games are going to knacker these players.

The League Cup has become the competition for experimentation and most teams from the top two levels use it for that purpose and as crowds are generally low there's not much financial reward for progressing and in our case there are normally 2 or 3 games for that experimentation.I'm not sure that you learn too much about a player because the side is often a disjointed one which may never have played together before.
In a lot of countries there are no such things as Reserve teams and players just have to train hard and grab that opportunity when it occurs-I think there is something in that and in fact didn't we (out of financial necessity) scrap ours a couple of times?

Personally I have always liked the idea of keeping a winning side together and players love playing-training is still thought of as a chore by players.
Last Sunday Coppell openly decided to "rest" Cisse and Harper and we know how disjointed the team looked with Marek and Bryn in the middle.I think the decision cost us 2 points which just might prove more important than resting Cisse and Harper for 60 minutes freezing on the bench.

Finally the question of money.
When Bournemouth lost to Blyth it was thought that in doing so they gave up on £250,000.That is a fortune for a club in their position and there was never a question of playing a weakened team (the one they have is already weak)but (and most of us can remember when we had to scrap around for free transfers-it's not that long ago) it seems as though the revenue isn't an issue despite the bleatings from the club last September about harsh financial prospects and how the club would have to be so careful about money.
So on monetary grounds alone I would have thought that the club would be very keen to make progress and if Long in place of Doyle and Kelly in place of Armstrong is not a weakened team then why are these players not in the first team already or is the club saying that we have a lot of players but they are of equal ability? I don't believe that.
I would have gone to Cardiff but since the two games v WBA when we started rotation in the FA Cup I don't go to watch a mish-mash team that is playing a game like a friendly-that's what pre-season games are for not the 3rd round of the most famous competition in world football.

The writer has picked on us and it could have been addressed to a number of others -but I don't care about those others whereas I care that our club has recently gone Billy Big-time on a number of issues and I don't like it.

Sorry, I've missed this thread until today, but I have to say TOP TOP TOP POST. Echoes my thoughts exactly. Thanks Vic.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Victor Meldrew » 05 Jan 2009 17:43

Mr Angry When there were all those games being played over Xmas, on terrible pitches, with no subs etc etc, how old were players when they retired?

Generally anyone who got to 30 was seen as a veteren, and many players went out carrying injuries having had regular cortisone injections, leaving many of those players now virtually crippled. Tommy Smith, one of those 14 players Liverpool used can barely walk.

Now players play regularly til their late 30's, and it is rare to hear of a player retiring at 28 (which was how old Coppell was when he retired).

Spacey is right, football (and society) have moved on, and trying to pretend otherwise is delusional.


In your latest post you say that I wrongly picked you up on players in the TOP FLIGHT.
I have had problems with my eyes (what's your excuse? :wink: ) but I can't see where I said anything either about TOP FLIGHT-would you care to point out in a very grown up way and I would then acknowledge any error also in a very grown up way.
Sometimes we see what we wish to see.
BTW your mate Spacey failed to pick you up on the spelling of "veteran".

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by The 17 Bus » 05 Jan 2009 17:59

Thaumagurist*
Sun Tzu And wasn't there a classic case of the cup run totally destroying a pretty decent league position in amongst them ?


I seem to remember Reading were in a decent position at the start of 1998 (i.e. well above the relegation zone) and were confident of staying up. Then our cup runs happened and the rest is history.....


Or it could be seen that we were doing well whilst in the cups, it was after we got knocked out the fall began.


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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Victor Meldrew » 05 Jan 2009 21:06

Have just read Owen Coyle of Burnley saying how much he loves the cups-how refreshing.
Burnley have a replay in the FA Cup and two games at least to come in the League Cup.
With them being not far behind us in the league it will be interesting where they finish up considering that they will end up playing at least 5 more games than us.
Good luck to them.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Sun Tzu » 05 Jan 2009 21:09

Victor Meldrew Have just read Owen Coyle of Burnley saying how much he loves the cups-how refreshing.
Burnley have a replay in the FA Cup and two games at least to come in the League Cup.
With them being not far behind us in the league it will be interesting where they finish up considering that they will end up playing at least 5 more games than us.
Good luck to them.


I predict where they finish will lead to them actually playing 7 or even 8 more games than us.....

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Victor Meldrew » 05 Jan 2009 22:06

Sun Tzu
Victor Meldrew Have just read Owen Coyle of Burnley saying how much he loves the cups-how refreshing.
Burnley have a replay in the FA Cup and two games at least to come in the League Cup.
With them being not far behind us in the league it will be interesting where they finish up considering that they will end up playing at least 5 more games than us.
Good luck to them.


I predict where they finish will lead to them actually playing 7 or even 8 more games than us.....


Unless of course we are in the play-offs.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Woodcote Royal » 05 Jan 2009 22:20

Meanwhile, some of us are just pleased that the club is keeping a firm grip on it's list of priorities.

Even if Burnley are promoted and we are not, a place in the Premiership will remain the real prize on our horizon as opposed to a cup we stand no chance of winning without a Premiership squad..........................


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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Sun Tzu » 06 Jan 2009 09:43

Victor Meldrew
Sun Tzu
Victor Meldrew Have just read Owen Coyle of Burnley saying how much he loves the cups-how refreshing.
Burnley have a replay in the FA Cup and two games at least to come in the League Cup.
With them being not far behind us in the league it will be interesting where they finish up considering that they will end up playing at least 5 more games than us.
Good luck to them.


I predict where they finish will lead to them actually playing 7 or even 8 more games than us.....


Unless of course we are in the play-offs.


Twas factored into the original assessment ! :lol:

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Mr Angry » 06 Jan 2009 10:17

Victor Meldrew
Mr Angry When there were all those games being played over Xmas, on terrible pitches, with no subs etc etc, how old were players when they retired?

Generally anyone who got to 30 was seen as a veteren, and many players went out carrying injuries having had regular cortisone injections, leaving many of those players now virtually crippled. Tommy Smith, one of those 14 players Liverpool used can barely walk.

Now players play regularly til their late 30's, and it is rare to hear of a player retiring at 28 (which was how old Coppell was when he retired).

Spacey is right, football (and society) have moved on, and trying to pretend otherwise is delusional.


In your latest post you say that I wrongly picked you up on players in the TOP FLIGHT.
I have had problems with my eyes (what's your excuse? :wink: ) but I can't see where I said anything either about TOP FLIGHT-would you care to point out in a very grown up way and I would then acknowledge any error also in a very grown up way.
Sometimes we see what we wish to see.
BTW your mate Spacey failed to pick you up on the spelling of "veteran".


Fair enough, you posted "top level" rather than "top flight" - my mistake and humble apologies for making such a grave error. I won't ask you how you would seperate those 2 phrases, as I would give up the will to live reading your response!

:wink:

Your anger at what Coppell did boils down to this sentence - "in the matter of the FA Cup I think our club has brought the competition into disrepute and I don't like it.". Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it, and to express it - in the same way that others don't see it in the same way, and are also entitled to their opinion on the subject, and entitled to have their opinions respected.

For what its worth, I - like you - have chosen to not bother going to cup games for the same reasons as you. However, I understand why Coppell has done what he has done, and though I don't 100% agree with it, I know he is doing it with the best intentions of the club in mind, and as someone who has managed the club through its most successful period in its history, I'm more than happy to accept his reasoning behind his decision.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by rabidbee » 06 Jan 2009 10:26

You need a new username!

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Victor Meldrew » 06 Jan 2009 11:26

Mr Angry
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Mr Angry When there were all those games being played over Xmas, on terrible pitches, with no subs etc etc, how old were players when they retired?

Generally anyone who got to 30 was seen as a veteren, and many players went out carrying injuries having had regular cortisone injections, leaving many of those players now virtually crippled. Tommy Smith, one of those 14 players Liverpool used can barely walk.

Now players play regularly til their late 30's, and it is rare to hear of a player retiring at 28 (which was how old Coppell was when he retired).

Spacey is right, football (and society) have moved on, and trying to pretend otherwise is delusional.


In your latest post you say that I wrongly picked you up on players in the TOP FLIGHT.
I have had problems with my eyes (what's your excuse? :wink: ) but I can't see where I said anything either about TOP FLIGHT-would you care to point out in a very grown up way and I would then acknowledge any error also in a very grown up way.
Sometimes we see what we wish to see.
BTW your mate Spacey failed to pick you up on the spelling of "veteran".


Fair enough, you posted "top level" rather than "top flight" - my mistake and humble apologies for making such a grave error. I won't ask you how you would seperate those 2 phrases, as I would give up the will to live reading your response!

:wink:

Your anger at what Coppell did boils down to this sentence - "in the matter of the FA Cup I think our club has brought the competition into disrepute and I don't like it.". Thats your opinion and you are entitled to it, and to express it - in the same way that others don't see it in the same way, and are also entitled to their opinion on the subject, and entitled to have their opinions respected.

For what its worth, I - like you - have chosen to not bother going to cup games for the same reasons as you. However, I understand why Coppell has done what he has done, and though I don't 100% agree with it, I know he is doing it with the best intentions of the club in mind, and as someone who has managed the club through its most successful period in its history, I'm more than happy to accept his reasoning behind his decision.


Apologies for the pedantry over top flight and top level.
My point was that Matthews played at the top level until he was 50 and I was asking how many (of the MANY or was it GENERALLY that you intimated)are now playing in their late 30s and I gave examples of downtrodden Reading players who did play on til their late 30s when medical advice was so poor which means to me that they far from all were washed out earlier than they are today.
As you can gather this FA Cup business has made me angrier than a Mr Angry and I'll now leave it til next year when we either can't put out a strong side because we are fighting Premier League relegation or once again can't because we are fighting for promotion again.Will Shane Long still be a prospect that Coppell needs to look at to establish if he might be fit for the first team? :wink:
I may have been to Wembley for a Simod Cup and for a play-off game and whereas I expect that we could well feature again in a play-off there regrettably I don't expect to ever see us there in my lifetime for any form of cup final.

One final point , I haven't seen any comment about the 4th round draw.
Does anybody else think that this year of all years might just have been the one occasion when we might have beaten Arsenal or at least killed the ghost of the 4-0 masterclass ?

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Negative_Jeff » 06 Jan 2009 11:35

Woodcote Royal Meanwhile, some of us are just pleased that the club is keeping a firm grip on it's list of priorities.

Even if Burnley are promoted and we are not, a place in the Premiership will remain the real prize on our horizon as opposed to a cup we stand no chance of winning without a Premiership squad..........................


Oh no... the Premier League experience was purgatory.
Scrapping for points from the bottom six in the hope of staying up, not turning up anywhere else,rearranged kick off times, botched travel plans, and high prices.
I would like to see the return of a trend that was fashionable 30 years ago, resting players in the league to concentrate on the cups. Look, there were some mouth watering trips in the fourth round draw...Crewe, Hartlepool, Kettering, Torquay, Saafend among them, all requiring reference to the Good Beer Guide.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Alan Partridge » 06 Jan 2009 11:36

Sorry to put another log in your fire VM but with the team Coppell would have named, I think a 4-0 or something similar would have been very much on the cards again.

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Re: Fielding "weakened" teams in the FA Cup

by Mr Angry » 06 Jan 2009 12:23

VM - as long as Coppell is our manager, I think he will always see the cup games as opportunities to give fringe/squad/returning injured players a run out in a more competitive fixture than that offered by reserve team football, and therefore our hopes of the glory day out at Wembley will have to be put on hold until after he leaves the club.

I say that not as a criticism of Coppell, merely an observation.

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