MATCHWATCH : Doncaster Rovers (h)

[Snowflake Royal]

Think Garcia is down to age, he’s grown a fair bit and I think won’t get bullied this year as much

Don’t think Kelvin gets especially bullied tbh. He just isn’t a natural target man despite his size. He certainly holds his own against most defenders.

Tbf I’ve enjoyed the last couple of games a lot more. That’s been more impt than the results for me. It wouldn’t take much to cheer me up as I posted on the best team thread

We went with the wrong strategy, signed too many journeymen players, too many loans and lost sight of what made us enjoyable to watch last few years.

Which signings specifically do you lament? O'Connor, Williams, Ritchie and Marriot are the most experienced and all look like great signings. Lane, Kyerewaa and Fraser are all young enough to improve at the club. Stevens is not that exciting, but who would we be playing now with Pereira injured? We didn't have a second keeper ready.

None of the loanees have set the world alight, but at the same time I don't see Burns, O'Mahony or Doyle blocking progress to any academy players. Jacob is undoubtedly the worst signing as he's looked pretty poor and I think Ryan was ready to make an impact this season. So I'd say one disappointing signing out of an awful lot because we had no squad.

I'd say it's quite a likeable squad really; you can see they're behind the cause and desperate to do better. Maybe as we watch them grow together and hopefully win more, we'll strike up the same connection we had with the previous team. But that team earned extra credit for fighting in our darkest hour, and we were always going to lose that (thankfully).

I’m interested on these repeated viewpoints on Jacob as personally don’t think he’s been poor at all but it does seem to be the consensus. Think he’s been fairly steady, Exeter aside, without particularly standing out

Certainly wouldn’t disagree it was a “stockpile” signing in an area we already had options, Dorsett, Ryan, Garcia (Yiadom + Abrefa at a push) and I’m thinking that may perhaps be clouding people’s judgements?

I agree with you. I think he had a truly dreadful start, possibly in a preseason game. Looked poor initially, but has largely been fine since, with the odd bad moment, same as most. But people have made up their mind on him as being bad, so that's all they see.

We may have gone a little far on the older players and loanees. But our squad has been crying out for a bit more experience, and we simply don't have an endless production line of young talent. We've blown through a lot our youth reserves in the last few years. There's really not that much left ready to step in right now.

[Hound]

How we do we know we don’t have a lot left in reserve? Sackey, Spencer, Ryan, Borgnis, Garcia, Osho could all do a job at least as good as some of the players we’ve brought in. Kelvin, Abrefa, Garcia, Stickland were all sidelined quickly, Wareham and Craig were allowed to leave because they weren’t expected to get minutes

Players like Elliott and Rushesha who were part of the last couple of years also quickly left out in favour of new players of similar level

We’ve become largely a team of 30 somethings, loanees and unexceptional signings. Just another average div1 team

We certainly didn’t need Jacob. MoM has been poor but can understand the signing. Burns no better than Dorsett maybe Borgnis or even Stickland, Doyle no better than Elliott.

Fraser fair enough but has really performed. Kyeweera didn’t need at all. Ritchie, Williams and Marriott all brought in because previous signings had failed and short term sticking plasters. O Connor a good signing, Stevens fine. Lane will be a good signing in time I reckon

Bringing in the profile of player we did is understandable and acceptable if we’re genuinely going to challenge play offs but otherwise just a waste of a season

[Snowflake Royal]

How we do we know we don’t have a lot left in reserve? Sackey, Spencer, Ryan, Borgnis, Garcia, Osho could all do a job at least as good as some of the players we’ve brought in. Kelvin, Abrefa, Garcia, Stickland were all sidelined quickly, Wareham and Craig were allowed to leave because they weren’t expected to get minutes

Players like Elliott and Rushesha who were part of the last couple of years also quickly left out in favour of new players of similar level

We’ve become largely a team of 30 somethings, loanees and unexceptional signings. Just another average div1 team

We certainly didn’t need Jacob. MoM has been poor but can understand the signing. Burns no better than Dorsett maybe Borgnis or even Stickland, Doyle no better than Elliott.

Fraser fair enough but has really performed. Kyeweera didn’t need at all. Ritchie, Williams and Marriott all brought in because previous signings had failed and short term sticking plasters. O Connor a good signing, Stevens fine. Lane will be a good signing in time I reckon

Bringing in the profile of player we did is understandable and acceptable if we’re genuinely going to challenge play offs but otherwise just a waste of a season

Well, having seen most of them play.

Craig chose to leave, we offered him a deal. Same with Wareham.

Ehibhatiomhan, Abrefa, Garcia and Camara have all been involved while fit.

JOP, Sackey, Rushesha, Stickland just don't look up to it. Stickland in particular has had the chance and simply not been good enough.

Elliott is playing, but not taking his chance.

Ahmed has played and looked promising, but not ready for such heavy exposure.

Ryan looks ok, but not great. Osho has been injured. Borgnis and Spencer are early in the journey and getting cup games. They have potential but aren't really ready yet.

The best youth players have already been picked up by bigger clubs before they get near the first team.

[Hound]

Couhig said Wareham and Craig left as they were told they wouldn’t get pitch time

Kelvin, Abrefa, Garcia have been benched or left out when others available. Camara likely the same when fit again

Ryan would be fine from what I’ve seen. Esp if the alternative is the error prone Jacob. Borgnis and Spencer plenty old enough to play. They are same age/older than MoM and Doyle. Doesn’t stack up

We’ve gone from a team where our best players are young hungry sellable players signed as a result of great scouting or from the academy (Mbengue, Bindon, Abbey, Smith, , Savage, Knibbs, JP + Wing) to a team where our best are veterans with no sell on (Williams, Paudie, 2 years older Wing and JP, Marriott, Ritchie)

Also the business model of the club needs the academy to produce and have them playing and sold on. Who has sell on value in our side currently? Certainly no one we’ve signed

[Hound]

JOP

You really don't like him, do you.

I'd put Abrefa, Ahmed or Yiadom RW ahead of JOP.

Kyeweera just isn’t very good. Maybe he’ll improve in time but I have zero enthusiasm for him atm and think he’s a big part of why we’ve looked so poor this season.

To an extent, draws similarities with Popa where they have a knack of forever running around and looking busy but stand out like children playing men’s football

He did OK on Tuesday, don’t quite agree with your assessment, but the brutal reality is he’s not enough of a threat and he doesn’t have enough other redeemable features to compensate for that. Willing to be more lenient with him compared to someone like Lane who has plenty more experience in this league but time is running out

Yes the Popa comparison is a good one

Lane has at least shown some quality - a great goal (won us 2 points) and a lovely cross for Kelvin on Tuesday. You can see he has it in him if he has been poor overall so far

Only real thing I can think of from Kyeweera is the goal at Barnsley.

Jacob isn’t appalling but he isn’t good either. Mistakes and defensively not great. No assists or anything either. Certainly didn’t need him

[leon]

Couhig said Wareham and Craig left as they were told they wouldn’t get pitch time

if that is true that's insane - did the club think they were bringing in a load of superstars during the summer?

[WestYorksRoyal]

The approach 2 years ago was because we didn't have a choice. We were never going to get promoted that way when competitors had more depth and experience. I know Alan Hansen had his "win nothing with kids" comment age like spilt milk, but Fergie had seen enough from the class on '92 to know they were ready and it was his choice to play them. We've been playing academy prospects who fundamentally aren't ready through lack of choice.

A few examples: what level is Matt Carson playing at now? Louie Holzman just got sent on loan from Aldershot to Farnborough. Kanu is having a good season at Forest Green in the NL, which suggests that is a good move for him instead of being thrown into our first team. They outnumber Bindon and Abbey, who werw the two biggest successes of that side by far.

Craig and Wareham were offered squad player roles which was the right decision. Craig has found himself a squad player at Orient which suggests our view of him was right. I'd rather have Wareham than MOM, but is he at the 1st choice level of Smith or Marriot? The mere suggestion is a joke.

Academy products who are ready play for the first team. Ones who are nearly ready feature in cups and get loans. Those who are not ready play in the U21s. We were never going to return to the Championship by reducing the quality required to feature in the first team.

[stealthpapes]

Couhig said Wareham and Craig left as they were told they wouldn’t get pitch time

if that is true that's insane - did the club think they were bringing in a load of superstars during the summer?

I am fairly sure I saw something about Craig wanting another/a different challenge.

[Hound]

The approach 2 years ago was because we didn't have a choice. We were never going to get promoted that way when competitors had more depth and experience. I know Alan Hansen had his "win nothing with kids" comment age like spilt milk, but Fergie had seen enough from the class on '92 to know they were ready and it was his choice to play them. We've been playing academy prospects who fundamentally aren't ready through lack of choice.

A few examples: what level is Matt Carson playing at now? Louie Holzman just got sent on loan from Aldershot to Farnborough. Kanu is having a good season at Forest Green in the NL, which suggests that is a good move for him instead of being thrown into our first team. They outnumber Bindon and Abbey, who werw the two biggest successes of that side by far.

Craig and Wareham were offered squad player roles which was the right decision. Craig has found himself a squad player at Orient which suggests our view of him was right. I'd rather have Wareham than MOM, but is he at the 1st choice level of Smith or Marriot? The mere suggestion is a joke.

Academy products who are ready play for the first team. Ones who are nearly ready feature in cups and get loans. Those who are not ready play in the U21s. We were never going to return to the Championship by reducing the quality required to feature in the first team.

We absolutely had the choice 2 years ago. Selles and recruitment quickly chose young hungry players when he could have stuck with Carroll and more experienced underperformers - NGW, McIntyre etc. and brought in the type of players we have done this year (before dai pulled the plug)

We came 7th last year with a back four with an average age of about 20. We’re currently about 17th last I looked

For me taking the approach we have taken we absolutely have to be challenging near the top (and also some enjoyable football would help). If we’re mid to lower mid then we should be prioritising the academy lads. Until the last game or so (a defeat and a 1-0 over the mighty Northampton) it’s literally been the worst of both worlds

[Brogue]

Oh no, not Kyeweera. He was terrible on Tues and hasn’t been much good all season. He isn’t even that quick or exciting. If we’re keeping Kelv as a 9 (don’t mind that) then I think I’d rather shove Doyle RW or promote JOP or something

JOP

You really don't like him, do you.

I'd put Abrefa, Ahmed or Yiadom RW ahead of JOP.

Maybe Ahmed or Yids. Shame Osho isn’t fit. Not serious on JOP

Kyeweera just isn’t very good. Maybe he’ll improve in time but I have zero enthusiasm for him atm and think he’s a big part of why we’ve looked so poor this season.

Don’t really like all these small attackers - Marriott, Lane, Ritchie, Kyeweera, JOP. Unless they are really good they’ll just get bullied

Tuma’s fit now isn’t he? I’d give him a run out if Ritchie isn’t fit

[Snowflake Royal]

Kyeweera just isn’t very good. Maybe he’ll improve in time but I have zero enthusiasm for him atm and think he’s a big part of why we’ve looked so poor this season.

To an extent, draws similarities with Popa where they have a knack of forever running around and looking busy but stand out like children playing men’s football

He did OK on Tuesday, don’t quite agree with your assessment, but the brutal reality is he’s not enough of a threat and he doesn’t have enough other redeemable features to compensate for that. Willing to be more lenient with him compared to someone like Lane who has plenty more experience in this league but time is running out

Yes the Popa comparison is a good one

Lane has at least shown some quality - a great goal (won us 2 points) and a lovely cross for Kelvin on Tuesday. You can see he has it in him if he has been poor overall so far

Only real thing I can think of from Kyeweera is the goal at Barnsley.

Jacob isn’t appalling but he isn’t good either. Mistakes and defensively not great. No assists or anything either. Certainly didn’t need him

This view we didn’t need Jacob simply isn't true.

Dorsett is injury prone and regularly misses half a season. He's a CB naturally anyway.
Ryan spent the entirety of last season injured and going into this season hadn't played a single minute of competitive senior football for us.
Garcia spent half of last season showing he wasn't a very good defender, and Hunt has clearly earmarked him to play as an attacker instead.

Most people spent half of last season saying we really needed a LB.

[stealthpapes]

... and Garcia's currently injured anyway.

[Snowflake Royal]

Couhig said Wareham and Craig left as they were told they wouldn’t get pitch time

if that is true that's insane - did the club think they were bringing in a load of superstars during the summer?

It's not that insane. Depending o the extent.

Craig clearly wasn't going to be first choice. Either out of position at RB, where we had actual RBs and a promising youngste, or in midfield where he was behind Wing and Savage.

We also clearly weren't going togo into the season with Wareham first choice, and no one would have been happy if we did.

Would I rather have had Wareham and Craig than O'Mahoney and Fraser, sure. Though O'Mahoney is as much hindsight with his performance.

Marriott or Wareham? Marriott all day long

[leon]

Couhig said Wareham and Craig left as they were told they wouldn’t get pitch time

if that is true that's insane - did the club think they were bringing in a load of superstars during the summer?

It's not that insane. Depending o the extent.

Craig clearly wasn't going to be first choice. Either out of position at RB, where we had actual RBs and a promising youngste, or in midfield where he was behind Wing and Savage.

We also clearly weren't going togo into the season with Wareham first choice, and no one would have been happy if we did.

Would I rather have had Wareham and Craig than O'Mahoney and Fraser, sure. Though O'Mahoney is as much hindsight with his performance.

Marriott or Wareham? Marriott all day long

I didn't mention guaranteed 1st choice for either of them.

The fact is our full backs have been an issue (still) all season. And the fact that we had to get Marriot in last minute would suggest letting either go (IF that was the case) was rather short sighted to say the least.

Would you say MOM is an upgrade on Wareham?

Not that it matters because Marriot won't get injured.....

[Hound]

To an extent, draws similarities with Popa where they have a knack of forever running around and looking busy but stand out like children playing men’s football

He did OK on Tuesday, don’t quite agree with your assessment, but the brutal reality is he’s not enough of a threat and he doesn’t have enough other redeemable features to compensate for that. Willing to be more lenient with him compared to someone like Lane who has plenty more experience in this league but time is running out

Yes the Popa comparison is a good one

Lane has at least shown some quality - a great goal (won us 2 points) and a lovely cross for Kelvin on Tuesday. You can see he has it in him if he has been poor overall so far

Only real thing I can think of from Kyeweera is the goal at Barnsley.

Jacob isn’t appalling but he isn’t good either. Mistakes and defensively not great. No assists or anything either. Certainly didn’t need him

This view we didn’t need Jacob simply isn't true.

Dorsett is injury prone and regularly misses half a season. He's a CB naturally anyway.
Ryan spent the entirety of last season injured and going into this season hadn't played a single minute of competitive senior football for us.
Garcia spent half of last season showing he wasn't a very good defender, and Hunt has clearly earmarked him to play as an attacker instead.

Most people spent half of last season saying we really needed a LB.

If we don’t think Dorsett and Ryan will be fit then they shouldn’t be offered a deal. Garcia did fine at LB overall and will be better for being a year older. If he sees Garcia as a winger why one earth have we brought in Lane, Kyeweera, Ritchie on top? Abrefa can play there as well. As well as LB.

Absolutely didn’t need Jacob on top of what we had already.

As for injuries to Osho, Camara, Garcia, Kelvin E - well that’s a different discussion. We didn’t have so many of those last year

I’d have happily kept Wareham over Marriott. 10 years younger and a better all round player who will improve and not decline. Though I’d have bought in another striker on top of Wareham. Saved the budget wasted on JOP, Rushesha, Kyeweera etc and bought in someone decent in their 20s

[stealthpapes]

We absolutely had the choice 2 years ago. Selles and recruitment quickly chose young hungry players when he could have stuck with Carroll and more experienced underperformers - NGW, McIntyre etc. and brought in the type of players we have done this year (before dai pulled the plug)

Two thoughts

First, the squad coming together/formation settling down took time. Carroll started first two games, slipped to the bench, and only left at the end of the window. Hutchison was still playing until Shrewsbury. McIntyre and NGW both played > 10 games.

Second, we brought in 12 'first team' players + 4 on loan in 2023 (I'm not counting Wellens, Clark, Ryan on the wiki list) - there's more 'established' players in there than some of the posts have implied - eyeballing, it is two over 30s, five in their mid-20s. As we weren't allowed to pay fees, nine of the twelve were from unattached.

We buy Harvey Knibbs in 2023 and he proves to be very good (immediate background was Cambridge United, aged 24 and scoring about a goal every 7 games). We bring in Lane this summer, same age, similar immediate background, a mildly better scoring record at Portsmouth - how different actually is it? Indeed, Doyle should be a better prospect (younger, better scoring record, better pedigree ...

Anyway, I don't think there's that much difference in the strategy itself, but it was clearly more successful in 2023 with Knibbs, Smith, Bindon, Savage, Wing all turning out alright. The biggest difference, to my mind, is that they were necessarily given more time and patience.

[Hound]

We absolutely had the choice 2 years ago. Selles and recruitment quickly chose young hungry players when he could have stuck with Carroll and more experienced underperformers - NGW, McIntyre etc. and brought in the type of players we have done this year (before dai pulled the plug)

Two thoughts

First, the squad coming together/formation settling down took time. Carroll started first two games, slipped to the bench, and only left at the end of the window. Hutchison was still playing until Shrewsbury. McIntyre and NGW both played > 10 games.

Second, we brought in 12 'first team' players + 4 on loan in 2023 (I'm not counting Wellens, Clark, Ryan on the wiki list) - there's more 'established' players in there than some of the posts have implied - eyeballing, it is two over 30s, five in their mid-20s. As we weren't allowed to pay fees, nine of the twelve were from unattached.

We buy Harvey Knibbs in 2023 and he proves to be very good (immediate background was Cambridge United, aged 24 and scoring about a goal every 7 games). We bring in Lane this summer, same age, similar immediate background, a mildly better scoring record at Portsmouth - how different actually is it? Indeed, Doyle should be a better prospect (younger, better scoring record, better pedigree ...

Anyway, I don't think there's that much difference in the strategy itself, but it was clearly more successful in 2023 with Knibbs, Smith, Bindon, Savage, Wing all turning out alright. The biggest difference, to my mind, is that they were necessarily given more time and patience.

I don’t think they were given a lot of patience tbh - maybe from Selles, not the fans

It’s pretty different this year. Then the mid twenties players all had resell as has been proven. Lane is of that gist but cost a substantial fee

The key signings were free transfers who were very well scouted and could improve (Elliott, Savage, Knibbs, Smith, eventually JP, Bindon, re-signing Mbengue). Button was a poor signing as was Dean (but think he was back up anyway). Mukairu and Ballard didn’t work out esp well for one reason or another

O Connor similar signing to Wing. Good signings. Don’t think any of the others have been brought in with improvement and sell on in mind.

Bindon, Abbey, Mbengue, Savage were all made central to the side quickly with Kelvin, Elliott, Vickers, Craig and Dorsett not miles behind despite all being about 20 or younger

[stealthpapes]

I don’t think they were given a lot of patience tbh - maybe from Selles, not the fans

And given that the fans were proven wrong, do you think the fans should (a) do what they did last time or (b) try a different approach?

It’s pretty different this year.

Do you maybe think it could be too soon to tell?

[Hound]

I don’t think they were given a lot of patience tbh - maybe from Selles, not the fans

And given that the fans were proven wrong, do you think the fans should (a) do what they did last time or (b) try a different approach?

It’s pretty different this year.

Do you maybe think it could be too soon to tell?

Er no. The approach is clearly different. We’ve made the signings and pretty clear direction of selections for the first team

The current approach could still get us top 6, who knows. If Hunt can get the team playing well consistently then great but I’m outlining a)why I think anything other than a top 6 challenge is a failure and b) why I’m grumpy about the side this year

[Snowflake Royal]

if that is true that's insane - did the club think they were bringing in a load of superstars during the summer?

It's not that insane. Depending o the extent.

Craig clearly wasn't going to be first choice. Either out of position at RB, where we had actual RBs and a promising youngste, or in midfield where he was behind Wing and Savage.

We also clearly weren't going togo into the season with Wareham first choice, and no one would have been happy if we did.

Would I rather have had Wareham and Craig than O'Mahoney and Fraser, sure. Though O'Mahoney is as much hindsight with his performance.

Marriott or Wareham? Marriott all day long

I didn't mention guaranteed 1st choice for either of them.

The fact is our full backs have been an issue (still) all season. And the fact that we had to get Marriot in last minute would suggest letting either go (IF that was the case) was rather short sighted to say the least.

Would you say MOM is an upgrade on Wareham?

Not that it matters because Marriot won't get injured.....

No, I know you didn't. Which is why I said depending on the extent.

Yes, if they were told they would get no minutes, that insane. If they were told they'd be squad players, that's realistic.

It's also important to separate the need for a signing from the success of a particular signing. Jacob has (mostly) been fine imo. Not great, occasionally bad. But you don’t know whether a signing will succeed when you bring them in. Even good players fail at some clubs. And you have to shop with what's available. A LB was necessary. Jacob was the right sort of signing, but maybe not the best signing or maybe just the best we could get.

MOM has been really poor. But it's not like that was obvious in advance. Now, of course I'd take Wareham over MOM. In preseason? Probably not so much.

My understanding is we were chasing various other strikers for quite a while. And Marriott delayed to see if he could get a Champ club. Which is fair enough.