Long - time for a change?

[Ian Royal]

I'm struggling to find the point of all that.

It's simple. The actual league starts Shane Long has made, up until Jan-Feb this year were 35 or so,
not even a full season's worth, spread out over almost 5 seasons. It's easy to toss out meaningless
stuff about him having had 5-6 seasons, but it's false in terms of league starts. Not only was he a late-
starter but he's been given not-that-many league starts. NOW he is getting them, and IMO he's developing
very well, most obviously with a dramatically improved first touch.

Do you think there might be a reason why he didn't get more starts in that time? Like, I don't know, he wasn't good enough? His starting performances were poor - certainly most of the ones I saw prior to the end of last season were - ? We had far better strikers at the club?

The time he has been here and had to force his way into the starting line up is entirely relevant and trying to argue that's unfair because of the lack of starts he's had until recently only shows how he failed to do that previously.

It's can be no coincidence that he's only forced himself into the side as a regular starter since all of the strikers we'd got who'd scored 15 goals or more in a season have left. By the end of this season we'll know if he's taken his chance or not... it's pretty mixed at the moment despite some very good performances in terms of workrate. Derby could save him. Then again, it might not.

[Snowball]

Do you think there might be a reason why he didn't get more starts in that time?
Like, I don't know, he wasn't good enough? His starting performances were poor - certainly most of the ones I saw prior to the end of last season were - ? We had far better strikers at the club?

Like, he was raw and had to battle with strikers of whom the Number 3 was a million-pound man, the other two eventually worth 5-6 million?

But that was my point. Nothing to do with excuses, just the simple fact that in four seasons he only had slightly more starts than Church in his first proper season.

The time he has been here and had to force his way into the starting line up is entirely relevant and trying to argue that's
unfair because of the lack of starts he's had until recently only shows how he failed to do that previously.

As I say, fairness/unfairness is irrelevant.

All I am saying is that 28 league starts is hardly enough to bring any player to full-function
let alone a very raw talent like Long was.

It's can be no coincidence that he's only forced himself into the side as a regular starter since all of the strikers we'd got who'd scored 15 goals or more in a season have left. By the end of this season we'll know if he's taken his chance or not... it's pretty mixed at the moment despite some very good performances in terms of workrate. Derby could save him. Then again, it might not.

He is being selected as first striker because, right now, he's clearly better than his rivals for the job.

Hunt can be a great finisher, is bright and brave, but isn't as solid and robust as Long and has
always seemed to tire after 60 or so minutes. Nor is he quite as fast, good striker that he is.

Church may regularly find space but doesn't contribute much except finding that space. Add to that
a reputation for missing some very good chances and not being as all-out gutsy as either Hunt or Long
(and seeming to be a bit lost this season)... he's clearly (at the moment) third choice.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

someone said long had won 5 pens for us ? I would
guess its more like 20+in total. plays for them
of course but thats a skill if you ask me

[Snowball]

someone said long had won 5 pens for us ? I would
guess its more like 20+in total. plays for them
of course but thats a skill if you ask me

Agreed on the skill. 5 this season, and two definite pens not given, plus another VG shout.
A couple last season under McDermott, one v Charlton, one v Norwich? Sure there are others.

[Stranded]

The problem Shane Long will always have is that he is the beacon for what, for many, has gone wrong at this club in the last 3/4 years. He has gone from 4th choice to 1st choice, not because he has progressed and overtaken those ahead of him, but because those who were ahead of him have gone and not really been replaced. As a result, again for some, it feels as though he has had this role of lead striker given to him by default as a result.

As many of said, you just need to look at the way he plays, he is not a number 1 striker but a very good support striker (see comments praising his all round work) unfortunately, he is not playing the role that he is the best fit for and it gets picked up. If he was the 2nd striker and was where he is goal wise now, I'd almost guarantee widespread praise at the mo.

[Wimb]

The problem Shane Long will always have is that he is the beacon for what, for many, has gone wrong at this club in the last 3/4 years. He has gone from 4th choice to 1st choice, not because he has progressed and overtaken those ahead of him, but because those who were ahead of him have gone and not really been replaced. As a result, again for some, it feels as though he has had this role of lead striker given to him by default as a result.

As many of said, you just need to look at the way he plays, he is not a number 1 striker but a very good support striker (see comments praising his all round work) unfortunately, he is not playing the role that he is the best fit for and it gets picked up. If he was the 2nd striker and was where he is goal wise now, I'd almost guarantee widespread praise at the mo.

Totally agreed ^^

[Snowball]

The problem Shane Long will always have is that he is the beacon for what, for many, has gone wrong at this club in the last 3/4 years. He has gone from 4th choice to 1st choice, not because he has progressed and overtaken those ahead of him, but because those who were ahead of him have gone and not really been replaced. As a result, again for some, it feels as though he has had this role of lead striker given to him by default as a result.

As many of said, you just need to look at the way he plays, he is not a number 1 striker but a very good support striker (see comments praising his all round work) unfortunately, he is not playing the role that he is the best fit for and it gets picked up. If he was the 2nd striker and was where he is goal wise now, I'd almost guarantee widespread praise at the mo.

Totally agreed ^^

So why does LONG get the criticism? Shouldn't it be the management?

[Snowball]

someone said long had won 5 pens for us ? I would
guess its more like 20+in total. plays for them
of course but that's a skill if you ask me

20-09-2008 Watford Away Taken by Hunt
13-12-2008 Norwich Home Taken by Hunt (also scored OP goal)
10-03-2009 Charlton Home Taken by Long (scored. also scored in OP)

Two last season, (taken by Gylfi) 5 this season (4 scored by Shane, 1 by Harte)

That's ten I've found

[Snowball]

In Long's first four seasons he had 28 League starts so he went into season 2009-10 with LESS league starts than Simon Church

At the start of this season it was Church 54 League Starts, Long 50

Only now, this season, has Long overtaken Church 62-70

Long "has been around forever" but he hasn't played a phenomenal number of minutes.
His shortest-timed 40 sub appearances total just 333 minutes, an average of 8.3 minutes
and all his c80 sub appearances, league and cup combined only add up to 14.79 games


As many have said, a full-season loan somewhere when Shane was 18-19-20 might have made a heck of a difference,
but the truth is that in terms of playing time he and Church are on a par (excluding all those youth years Church will have had)




Church, League Starts

2007-08 11 (01) Crewe (Plus 2 Cup Starts)
2007-08 02 (04) Yeovil
2008-09 06 (03) Wycombe Wanderers (Shooting 1 ON 7 off!)
2008-09 12 (01) Leyton Orient (Shooting 11-13 4 Goals)
2008-09 01 (00) RFC, Play-Off game

32 Starts (09)

2009-10 22 (14)
2010-11 08 (12)

62 (35)


If you add in cup starts Shane has more 16 v 9

All Games

71 (38) = "77 Games" for 20 Goals a goal every 3.85 games Church (1 for Crewe, 4 for Leyton Orient)
86 (83) = "98 Games" for 35 Goals a goal every 2.80 games Long

Long's actual minutes total 95.7 x 90 minutes

[Wycombe Royal]

Deja vu springs to mind......

[Snowball]

Deja vu springs to mind......

Maybe it does. It doesn't change the facts that Long, despite being
here for 6 seasons, has barely played the equivalent of two.

[Hoop Blah]

Not read most of this thread since the end of last week, largely because half of it is on my ignore list, but fair play to Long. Saturday showed what we could do with a cutting edge upfront capable of being a bit more clinical.

Does this one result and one performance justify his inclusion and position and untouchable first choice for the last few months? Not really.

If Long and Hunt can dovetail together as they have recently (ie one taking chances whilst the other wastes them) then we might just be ok to hover around the play off contentions but to still expect that to happen is just a bit daft and naive.

[brendywendy]

The problem Shane Long will always have is that he is the beacon for what, for many, has gone wrong at this club in the last 3/4 years. He has gone from 4th choice to 1st choice, not because he has progressed and overtaken those ahead of him, but because those who were ahead of him have gone and not really been replaced. As a result, again for some, it feels as though he has had this role of lead striker given to him by default as a result.

As many of said, you just need to look at the way he plays, he is not a number 1 striker but a very good support striker (see comments praising his all round work) unfortunately, he is not playing the role that he is the best fit for and it gets picked up. If he was the 2nd striker and was where he is goal wise now, I'd almost guarantee widespread praise at the mo.

cant see why you seem so surprised that the squad has decreased in quality after relegation from the premiere league.
how was it ever going to stay at that level

[Stranded]

Where did I say I was surprised?

In fact Shane Long is the living example of the squad weakening (through no fault of his own), which was my point. He was 4th choice the year we went up, as a result of a number of factors, the 3 ahead of him have long since gone so he has become the defacto number 1 front man, without necessarily earning the tag.

[Hoop Blah]

cant see why you seem so surprised that the squad has decreased in quality after relegation from the premiere league.
how was it ever going to stay at that level

I think the biggest problem is that it hardly increased when we went up...

We're left with a squad a lot weaker than the one we had for the couple of seasons before the visit to the Premiership. Obviously the league winning team was exceptional, hence the 106 points, but that should be the kind of level we're looking for surely?

[brendywendy]

Where did I say I was surprised?

In fact Shane Long is the living example of the squad weakening (through no fault of his own), which was my point. He was 4th choice the year we went up, as a result of a number of factors, the 3 ahead of him have long since gone so he has become the defacto number 1 front man, without necessarily earning the tag.

yeah, but my point was-of course the squad weakened- we dropped a league
dont quite get your point tbf

[brendywendy]

cant see why you seem so surprised that the squad has decreased in quality after relegation from the premiere league.
how was it ever going to stay at that level

I think the biggest problem is that it hardly increased when we went up...

We're left with a squad a lot weaker than the one we had for the couple of seasons before the visit to the Premiership. Obviously the league winning team was exceptional, hence the 106 points, but that should be the kind of level we're looking for surely?

really? in terms of cost of purchase the squad we have now is more expensive.

i dont think its fair to compare this team to the one it was after we trounced the league.
you need to look at that squad as they were when we brought them in at the time - ie a load of free transfers, failures, and nobodys.
comparted to that team-before they became amazing- i reckon the current one compares pretty fecking well.

[Snowball]

Where did I say I was surprised?

In fact Shane Long is the living example of the squad weakening (through no fault of his own), which was my point. He was 4th choice the year we went up, as a result of a number of factors, the 3 ahead of him have long since gone so he has become the defacto number 1 front man, without necessarily earning the tag.

He is surely earning it, just that the overall standard is lower.

Two seasons ago, at this point in the season he had ONE goal (736 Minutes played)
Last season at this point in the season he had no goals at all (545 Minutes Played. He got his first goal 167 minutes later, total 712 minutes)

This season he already has six goals, a pen won for Harte's goal and three assists.
His all-round play is massively improved, his first touch is massively improved.



We are a Championship side. How were we expected to hold on to
Doyle 6.5M, Kitson 5.5M, Gylfi 7M, Hunt 4M, Sidwell, Shorey, Bikey etc

[Snowball]

Agreed, Brendy. The 106 squad can't really be used as a yard-stick, plus that season we were very lucky injury-wise

[Stranded]

Where did I say I was surprised?

In fact Shane Long is the living example of the squad weakening (through no fault of his own), which was my point. He was 4th choice the year we went up, as a result of a number of factors, the 3 ahead of him have long since gone so he has become the defacto number 1 front man, without necessarily earning the tag.

yeah, but my point was-of course the squad weakened- we dropped a league
dont quite get your point tbf

The point, which I thought was quite clear, is that for people who are unhappy with where the club has gone in the past few seasons - Shane is the embodiment of those issues.