Hillsborough

[Schards#2]

We all know that having a drink doesn't always equate to being drunk. However, if you're out in public and something happens like this, then having consumed alcohol is hardly going to help your case is it?

It's very naive to suggest there weren't quite a few drunk people there.

FA Cup semi-final
Sunny day
40,000+ people there

Kes does have a point here.

As someone who was going to lots of football at this time, it would be extremely unusual for a high profile game like this to be free from a fair few drunk fans, many more who whilst not drunk had had a few drinks before the match, fans who turned up late, fans who turned up without a ticket.

That was just how it was in that era. That's not to say that all of that amounts to Liverpool fans being to blame, but to suggest that none of the above was happening at this game is not really credible.

[southbank1871]

To suggest there’s no chance that the actions of a minority of Liverpool fans in some way contributed to the disaster, is a bit naïve imo.

[Jerry St Clair]

Kes does have a point here.

As someone who was going to lots of football at this time, it would be extremely unusual for a high profile game like this to be free from a fair few drunk fans, many more who whilst not drunk had had a few drinks before the match, fans who turned up late, fans who turned up without a ticket.

That was just how it was in that era. That's not to say that all of that amounts to Liverpool fans being to blame, but to suggest that none of the above was happening at this game is not really credible.

There is a huge amount of evidence that drunkenness was not a contributory factor to the disaster. That makes the point about there being "a fair few drunk fans" at the game irrelevant.

Fans did not turn up late by any definition. In fact, you could argue they turned up early. The tickets for this game advised fans to arrive 15 minutes before kick off. 15 minutes. The central pens at the Leppings Lane end were full to capacity by 2.10. The crush outside the ground started at around 1.50 and was critical by 2.20. Most of the people in the crush had arrived in Leppings Lane around 1.30. Who here things turning up at a ground an hour and half before kick off constitutes "late"?

Taylor found no evidence that ticketless fans were to blame. Indeed the Leppings Lane terrace, as a whole, was probably just under capacity, suggesting that only ticket holders gained entrance. Again, that makes there ticketless fans argument irrelevant.

[Schards#2]

Kes does have a point here.

As someone who was going to lots of football at this time, it would be extremely unusual for a high profile game like this to be free from a fair few drunk fans, many more who whilst not drunk had had a few drinks before the match, fans who turned up late, fans who turned up without a ticket.

That was just how it was in that era. That's not to say that all of that amounts to Liverpool fans being to blame, but to suggest that none of the above was happening at this game is not really credible.

There is a huge amount of evidence that drunkenness was not a contributory factor to the disaster. That makes the point about there being "a fair few drunk fans" at the game irrelevant.

Fans did not turn up late by any definition. In fact, you could argue they turned up early. The tickets for this game advised fans to arrive 15 minutes before kick off. 15 minutes. The central pens at the Leppings Lane end were full to capacity by 2.10. The crush outside the ground started at around 1.50 and was critical by 2.20. Most of the people in the crush had arrived in Leppings Lane around 1.30. Who here things turning up at a ground an hour and half before kick off constitutes "late"?

Taylor found no evidence that ticketless fans were to blame. Indeed the Leppings Lane terrace, as a whole, was probably just under capacity, suggesting that only ticket holders gained entrance. Again, that makes there ticketless fans argument irrelevant.

None of which contradicts what I said.

[Bandini]

You said that kes has a point.

(which isn't really playing the percentages tbf)

[Friday's Legacy]

Good article - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... e-orgreave

Hillsborough and Battle of Orgreave: one police force, two disgraces.

[Ark Royal]

Police had got themselves into a 'hooligan' mind-set, whereby every police action - and inaction - was tainted by pre-conceived ideas that ALL fans are hooligans and should be treated accordingly. Because of that, crowd safety was a very distant second consideration, when it should have been the primary concern.

The gates should NEVER have been opened. The police thought that they could control the 'hooligans' from within the pens a lot easier than the streets outside Hillsborough. It was that single decision that cost the lives of people who had only turned up to watch a football match.

If safety was the police's major concern then they did not learn any lesson from the previous year's semi-final between Spurs and Wolves when there was a near-disaster of exactly the same type at the Leppings Lane end involving Spurs fans.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

P
The gates should NEVER have been opened. The police thought that they could control the 'hooligans' from within the pens a lot easier than the streets outside Hillsborough. It was that single decision that cost the lives of people who had only turned up to watch a football match.

Opening the gates was a crowd safety decision because of the crush outside. It had little, if anything, to do with trying to control hooligans. The police outside weren't reporting any hooliganism.

[Friday's Legacy]

Chelsea fans break the minutes silence with a few idiots shouting out obscenities and a small section trying to sing chants.

[Super_horns]

Chelsea fans break the minutes silence with a few idiots shouting out obscenities and a small section trying to sing chants.

Sadly not surprised.

Fans have had all day to drink and lose their sense of mind.

[Royal Rother]

Sounded like a significant number. Heck of a racket on the radio.

Mind you, anniversary or not, it's quite ridiculous to even ask fans of other clubs to have a minute's silence, decades after the tragedy IMO. Quite ridiculous and asking for trouble from scum who have no respect for anyone, let alone dead fans of rival clubs. Hopefully this will put an end to it.

[Friday's Legacy]

Very good article - http://www.twitlonger.com/show/gvpu7f

Twenty-three years ago today 96 fans died at a ground whose safety certificate was ten years out of date, overseen by a police force whose preparations and response that day are publicly acknowledged (in Lord Justice Taylor's report) to have been inadequate. It might suit your allegiance or agenda to blame it on the Liverpool fans – “they were drunk”, “they turned up late”, “always the victims” – but that would be not only an enormous insult but a great disservice to supporters everywhere. Both now and then, the majority of regular match-going fans liked to have a pre-match drink rather than get into the ground an hour before kick-off. Both then and now, police and stewards are there to handle such situations.

Lord Justice Taylor concluded there was nothing exceptional, unusual or untoward in the fans’ behaviour that day. What was exceptional was the failure of the police operation at the Leppings Lane end, which was not fit to host such events and had been the subject of a major scare at the Tottenham v Wolves semi-final eight years earlier

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0

Liverpool are a divisive club, but Hillsborough is one issue that should unite all football fans. What happened on April 15 1989 was and remains not just a tragedy but a disgrace. It is not always clear what form of justice or closure the bereaved are looking for, but they deserve every support in their search for the truth not only of what happened that day but of why that truth – as they believe and I, like many others, believe – has been concealed for the past 23 years.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009 ... -liverpool
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... egacy-lies
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012 ... e-orgreave

[Muguire]

Chelsea fans an absolute disgrace. Who knew

[who are ya?]

LOL

[blindedbythelights]

Not sure why they'd show such disrespect for an event that occurred before their club was even invented

[Avon Royal]

Hillsborough was a tragedy, pure and simple. Innocent people died and Liverpool deserve the right to mourn for as long as they feel they need to.

However, what is galling to many is that their thirst for "justice" for those that died at Hillsborough is not matched by a sense of shame for what happened at Heysel. South Yorkshire Police may have failed massively on the day, but they didn't set out to hurt anybody. 39 equally innocent people died at Heysel because Liverpool fans were intent on causing them harm.

[blindedbythelights]

Wow, I don't think anyones ever made that argument before, gr8 post m8

[Avon Royal]

Cheers, appreciated.

[Schards#2]

Whether you agree with the holding of a minutes silence for any given incident, you really do have to be an absolute tool to disrupt it.

[Avon Royal]

Whether you agree with the holding of a minutes silence for any given incident, you really do have to be an absolute tool to disrupt it.

Absolutely.

The Chelsea end at Wembley was the biggest toolbox in the country though so it ought to have been expected.