Lionel Messi

[TBM]

Whats your point?

Messi hasn't won those competitions single handedly, like Maradona basically did in the 86 WC

That's a popular myth. He was in a team that conceded 3 goals in 6 games leading up to the final - was he responsible for their tight defending? They were also seriously assisted by fortune - they played two teams in the knock-out stages who had come 3rd out of 4 in the group stage (Belguim and Uruguay, who won a single game between them all tournament long) and we know about the fortune required to beat England.

Anyway, my point is that you can't separate players out of the context they played in, and by all objective measures Messi is achieving more individually and with his team than Maradona did - with the exception of not winning a world cup. I find the idea that Messi needs to win a world cup (which is something largely out of his control), or go and play for a worse club to prove he's the best, a bit bizarre.

For the record before now Maradona has always been my vote for the game's best player, based largely on seeing his amazing technique in old clips - not old enough to remember him playing except for the debacles of 1990 and 1994.

Im not denying Messi isn't great but he has only done this at a VERY good Barcalona team........if he moved to another country for another team, would he achieve the same? - also why can't he reproduce the form he shows for Barca for Argentina?

Maradona has done this, Messi hasn't..........come back in 4 years time and no doubt it will be Messi all day long, but at the moment i still think Maradona shades it. Does Messi carry Barcalona like Maradona carried teams?

[RobRoyal]

Maradona has done this, Messi hasn't..........come back in 4 years time and no doubt it will be Messi all day long, but at the moment i still think Maradona shades it. Does Messi carry Barcalona like Maradona carried teams?

So you do want Messi to join a shit team before you consider him the world's greatest? Why isn't playing at a good team and achieving more than anyone else (which he surely will do, it terms of trophies, individual awards, goalscoring records etc) enough?

[cmonurz]

Messi will never play for any team that isn’t considered the best in the world. Why would he? I’d be surprised if he ever leaves Barca, tbh. Again, why would he? He could go on to become the most decorated footballer in history. How many Premier League titles does Giggs have, is it 12?

[TBM]

Maradona has done this, Messi hasn't..........come back in 4 years time and no doubt it will be Messi all day long, but at the moment i still think Maradona shades it. Does Messi carry Barcalona like Maradona carried teams?

So you do want Messi to join a shit team before you consider him the world's greatest? Why isn't playing at a good team and achieving more than anyone else (which he surely will do, it terms of trophies, individual awards, goalscoring records etc) enough?

I didn't say that

You're saying Messi is better cos of all that he has won....when in fact i thought this was a player v player comparison. If the argument is "who played for the better team" then yes Messi wins.

Basically Messi is brilliant but how much of his brilliance is due to the fact he is playing for the best team in the world?

Maradona was brilliant, he showed how brilliant he was by the fact he wasn't playing for the best team in the world and managed to carry them through games due to his brilliance.

[cmonurz]

Basically Messi is brilliant but how much of his brilliance is due to the fact he is playing for the best team in the world?

They are the best team in the world in part because they have Messi.

[No Fixed Abode]

I agree with TBM, Why can't Messi reproduce that form for Argentina? Much the same as our best English midfielder, Frank Lampard - why can't he reproduce his club form for England?

[TBM]

Basically Messi is brilliant but how much of his brilliance is due to the fact he is playing for the best team in the world?

They are the best team in the world in part because they have Messi.

that's another debate

I feel the Spanish players are the main reason behind Barca's success - hence why they are the best [International] team in the world. Otherwise Argentina would be the best, cos they have Messi.

[RobRoyal]

I didn't say that

You're saying Messi is better cos of all that he has won....when in fact i thought this was a player v player comparison. If the argument is "who played for the better team" then yes Messi wins.

Basically Messi is brilliant but how much of his brilliance is due to the fact he is playing for the best team in the world?

Maradona was brilliant, he showed how brilliant he was by the fact he wasn't playing for the best team in the world and managed to carry them through games due to his brilliance.

But Barcelona are the best team in the world because they have Leo Messi. As I've said, take a closer look at the 1986 world cup and maybe reconsider what kind of achievement in was for Maradona. Doubtless he played brilliantly (at least judging from the goals against Belgium (who were shit) and England (who were quite good). But looking at the teams they had to play, it's not surprising that Maradona was able to dominate. Imagine if Argentina win the next world cup - and Messi scores only once in the group stages, then on route to the final his team beat two sides who finished 3rd in the group stage and cheat their way past another decent side, then win the final with Messi largely marked out of the game and failing to score... I think anybody at that stage saying "ok that's it now, he's won a world cup with an average side, he's deinitely the world's best ever" will sound a bit silly.

[RobRoyal]

I agree with TBM, Why can't Messi reproduce that form for Argentina? Much the same as our best English midfielder, Frank Lampard - why can't he reproduce his club form for England?

Probably a similar reason for both - failing international sides that play them in different roles to their clubs. I wouldn't blame either for their form for their countries - they've both done enough at the higher level of the Champions League to earn that.

[TBM]

I didn't say that

You're saying Messi is better cos of all that he has won....when in fact i thought this was a player v player comparison. If the argument is "who played for the better team" then yes Messi wins.

Basically Messi is brilliant but how much of his brilliance is due to the fact he is playing for the best team in the world?

Maradona was brilliant, he showed how brilliant he was by the fact he wasn't playing for the best team in the world and managed to carry them through games due to his brilliance.

But Barcelona are the best team in the world because they have Leo Messi. As I've said, take a closer look at the 1986 world cup and maybe reconsider what kind of achievement in was for Maradona. Doubtless he played brilliantly (at least judging from the goals against Belgium (who were shit) and England (who were quite good). But looking at the teams they had to play, it's not surprising that Maradona was able to dominate. Imagine if Argentina win the next world cup - and Messi scores only once in the group stages, then on route to the final his team beat two sides who finished 3rd in the group stage and cheat their way past another decent side, then win the final with Messi largely marked out of the game and failing to score... I think anybody at that stage saying "ok that's it now, he's won a world cup with an average side, he's deinitely the world's best ever" will sound a bit silly.

BUT I'M NOT SAYING YOU HAVE TO WIN THE WORLD CUP TO BE THE BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD

But performing in it, will help......something Messi doesn't do for Argentina that Maradona did.

[Dare to Dr£am]

I agree with TBM, Why can't Messi reproduce that form for Argentina? Much the same as our best English midfielder, Frank Lampard - why can't he reproduce his club form for England?

Because the players around him aren't half as good.

[Royal Rother]

Maradona has done this, Messi hasn't..........come back in 4 years time and no doubt it will be Messi all day long, but at the moment i still think Maradona shades it. Does Messi carry Barcalona like Maradona carried teams?

So you do want Messi to join a shit team before you consider him the world's greatest? Why isn't playing at a good team and achieving more than anyone else (which he surely will do, it terms of trophies, individual awards, goalscoring records etc) enough?

Whilst reading this thread I keep thinking of something to say, then reading on, find that you've already said it! (And cmonurz)

Amongst other things it really is complete bollox about Maradona carrying Argentina in 86.

Out of interest, in my era:

1. Messi
2. Maradona
3. Pele
4. Zidane
5. Best
6. Ronaldo (Cristiano)
7. Cruyff
8. Platini
9. Ronaldo (Bucky)
10. Laudrup (Michael)

[Silver Fox]

I agree with TBM, Why can't Messi reproduce that form for Argentina? Much the same as our best English midfielder, Frank Lampard - why can't he reproduce his club form for England?

There's a flaw in this sentence somewhere

[FiNeRaIn]

lol@ suggesting maradonna is better because he won world cups. Back then international football was the top competition in the world without doubt, that's no longer the case. Most top european teams would beat most national teams these days and its almost certain that the top 1/2 teams from each country would beat their national team. Despite everyone thinking he's not done it for argentina he's scored only 12 less goals for them than diego and he's only 24. The guy is just immense, he pisses all over everyone.

[TBM]

lol@ suggesting maradonna is better because he won world cups. Back then international football was the top competition in the world without doubt, that's no longer the case. Most top european teams would beat most national teams these days and its almost certain that the top 1/2 teams from each country would beat their national team. Despite everyone thinking he's not done it for argentina he's scored only 12 less goals for them than diego and he's only 24. The guy is just immense, he pisses all over everyone.

Its not about winning the world cup, its about performing infront of millions watching and then doing the same for your club........Messi is without a doubt superb for Barca, but why cant he take that form in to the Argentina side, surely if the reason Barcelona are so good is down to him [as someone said above], then Argentina should have won the WC in 2010 and the Copa America in 2011?

[cmonurz]

Maradona didn't do it every time. He played in 4 World Cups (iirc), but will always be remembered for '86 for his football, and '94 for being wired.

And do you actually know what Messi's personal form has been like for Argentina? How many of their games do you watch?

[FiNeRaIn]

He's not as good for Argentina as he is for barcelona, but he's not as average as people are making out, his goalscoring record is similar to maradonna as I pointed out. Why is it he has to produce it internationally where he already does it in the greatest competition the champions league? What was maradonnas European cup ( as it was back then) record?

[RobRoyal]

It's not that Barca would be no good without Messi, of course that would be ridiculous to claim. Supposing it was Van Nistelrooy scoring 233 goals for Barca, I think there would be a better claim to say he was riding on the back of their brilliant creativity and quality in possession. But with Messi, he's as much part of that as anyone.

Messi was actually rather good in the last world cup. I don't think swapping him for Maradona would have meant reversing their thrashing by Germany.

Sure his case would be improved by being the top scorer and Argentina winning the world cup. But looking everything in the aggregate - and including the fact that he's already 2/3 along the way to Maradona's rather modest international goal tally - it seems bizarre to treat perhaps the only major argument in Maradona's favour as being the clincher. Especially because the achievement of winning that world cup isn't quite as outstanding as it first appears.

It would be as much to say "Maradona never did it in the European Cup - why? Why couldn't he take his teams that step further?"

[TBM]

And do you actually know what Messi's personal form has been like for Argentina? How many of their games do you watch?

I watched all the Copa America and the 2010 WC and he was nowhere to be seen.......i just found it strange for the best player in the world not to shine. Even Ronaldo performs better on the International stage.

[sandman]

There's nothing like a WC. It's a month long tournament where the games come thick and fast and the teams have to be ready to perform (especially in the knockout rounds) or they are out. There are no second leg chances in a World Cup. A lot of people seem to think that's a tea party compared to the great Champions League but it's not.

Imo the WC is still the ultimate test for any player and Messi needs to perform in one to even be considered in the same way as Pele, Maradona and even the likes of Zidane.