Updated POLL After Southampton Debacle.

[Lacoste]

i dont think, in a team performing this badly that feds and his missus having a dig, and guthrie havinga whinge(and dig at our style) is really that much


agree though- its clearly not the happiest place.and i wouldnt expect it to be.

Someone form RFC could rape your mum and you'd say

'Oh well, I wouldn't expect everyone to be happy and they needed to get their frustration out anyway. Brian in'

no. i wouldnt

id appreciate it of you stopped talking about my mum being raped too

It was a hypothetical example. I'm sure noone would want to rape her.

[melonhead]

For me, one of the big differences between a Coppell team and a McDermott team is that the former had good "football intelligence" - they'd take the initiative on the pitch themselves and know how to makes changes as required by the game. And SC would encourage them to do that and allow them to succeed (or fail) on their own.

But this squad, in particular, seems to be really short of intelligent footballers. Coupled with a real lack of on-field leaders I think that's got a lot to do with it.

I think that is a really good point. It was noteable under Coppell that we sought out quite a few youngsters that had come through coaching systems we clearly admired but who hadn't quite made it (plenty of ex arsenal youth players in evidence). The current crop do not have that same sort of background in general, being mostly homegrown or from the lower leagues originally. Does make you wonder if it comes down to early coaching at least in part?

that squad was built on the back of regular decent spending for our level over several seasons extending back to before pardew got us promoted to the championship, and supplemented with a few genius buys under coppell that pulled it all together, all the while backed by JMs wealth, which then disappeared
a s aresult this squad was built on bargain basement lower league players and cast offs, constantly in fire fighting mode so we couldnt really do much in the realm of long term planning.
which is why we are where we are, although imo its purely a brian based miracle we are even here in the first place

[Alexander Litvinenko]

imo gorkss sudden shakiness and lack of belief in hmself isnt down to mcdermott, nor is ledges traditional up and down fade in and out nature

I'm not altogether sure that they're playing any worse than they did last year - except for the vicious circle of lack of confidence that gets bigger with every defeat.

I think it's partly that at the much lower level we played at last year the occasional mistake would be much less likely top be punished, and that a predictable style coupled with effort and desire was good enough to win games.

So for me it's not that they've got worse, it's that they've failed to step up to the higher level, or made the change of style needed for this level, so that all of their shortcomings as a good Championship team who got lucky are now horribly exposed for all to see.

[melonhead]

Pog has only been a failure because we're not playing to his strengths. We don't play the ball on the ground enough and he's not a typical 'target man'.

The bare bones of it is we need to play the ball on the ground more, or shore things up the way Stoke do.

We're not doing either of the two, we're obviously not good enough.

i agree. that much is obvious.
but i dont think the pog is good enough to demend a total change in style to build it around him, and i dont think the players we have are capable

[melonhead]

Someone form RFC could rape your mum and you'd say

'Oh well, I wouldn't expect everyone to be happy and they needed to get their frustration out anyway. Brian in'

no. i wouldnt

id appreciate it of you stopped talking about my mum being raped too

It was a hypothetical example. I'm sure noone would want to rape her.

i asked nicely for you to stop talking about my mum being raped.
and im doing so again

[Hoop Blah]

The simple point is that there are no alternatives who could get as much out of this set of players as McDermott can.

If money was available for a significant number of players then it might be a different story - but by all accounts it won't be.

TBH I can't see anyone new being prepared to come in and try to save a sinking ship without promises of money - remember Wolves last season?

How do you know there are no alternatives who could get more from them?

We're not maximising their ability as it is so I can't get this view point.

I don't *know* -it's all opinions, of course.
But a large part of the success of McDermott in the past has been down to his relationship with *his* players, and that, coupled with the "group mentality" he cultivates so deeply, is what caused them to over-achieve last year. So I don't think that anyone else could get more out of these players.

But then again I don't think the fundamental problem is the manager- they squad just isn't good enough, and it's as simple as that. Even getting them back to the level they were playing at last season won't be enough in this league - as I think we only have a handful of players capable of performing at this higher level.

Agreed on most of that.

One thing I think we've always agreed on is the doubt about how McDermott would be able to rebuild the squad and manage players he didn't have that close relationship with before getting the managers job. He did pretty well at that by adding key missing parts to his squad and getting them into his way of working well.

I'm starting to think that he's got a ceiling of ego/ability/reputation that his methods work with and if the club want to operate at this level he just might be out of his depth.

I do think this squad is lacking. I don't think we're miles away from being a better side though and 2 or 3 key additions could, as we've seen before, transform the sides fortunes.

[Archie's penalty]

Pog has only been a failure because we're not playing to his strengths. We don't play the ball on the ground enough and he's not a typical 'target man'.

The bare bones of it is we need to play the ball on the ground more, or shore things up the way Stoke do.

We're not doing either of the two, we're obviously not good enough.

i agree. that much is obvious.
but i dont think the pog is good enough to demend a total change in style to build it around him, and i dont think the players we have are capable

I would like to see Guthrie in there. If it doesn't work, go and get another midfielder in January. At least try him again.

[melonhead]

imo gorkss sudden shakiness and lack of belief in hmself isnt down to mcdermott, nor is ledges traditional up and down fade in and out nature

I'm not altogether sure that they're playing any worse than they did last year - except for the vicious circle of lack of confidence that gets bigger with every defeat.

I think it's partly that at the much lower level we played at last year the occasional mistake would be much less likely top be punished, and that a predictable style coupled with effort and desire was good enough to win games.

So for me it's not that they've got worse, it's that they've failed to step up to the higher level, or made the change of style needed for this level, so that all of their shortcomings as a good Championship team who got lucky are now horribly exposed for all to see.

agree with all of that
but with our budget i fail to see what we were supposed to do about it in the short term of 1 transfer window

[melonhead]

Pog has only been a failure because we're not playing to his strengths. We don't play the ball on the ground enough and he's not a typical 'target man'.

The bare bones of it is we need to play the ball on the ground more, or shore things up the way Stoke do.

We're not doing either of the two, we're obviously not good enough.

i agree. that much is obvious.
but i dont think the pog is good enough to demend a total change in style to build it around him, and i dont think the players we have are capable

I would like to see Guthrie in there. If it doesn't work, go and get another midfielder in January. At least try him again.

100% with you there.
cant hurt. and if he has apologised, and is fit to play for an hour tomorrow id fully expect him to start.

ill be annoyed if he doesnt

[Alexander Litvinenko]

I don't *know* -it's all opinions, of course.
But a large part of the success of McDermott in the past has been down to his relationship with *his* players, and that, coupled with the "group mentality" he cultivates so deeply, is what caused them to over-achieve last year. So I don't think that anyone else could get more out of these players.

But then again I don't think the fundamental problem is the manager- they squad just isn't good enough, and it's as simple as that. Even getting them back to the level they were playing at last season won't be enough in this league - as I think we only have a handful of players capable of performing at this higher level.

Agreed on most of that.

One thing I think we've always agreed on is the doubt about how McDermott would be able to rebuild the squad and manage players he didn't have that close relationship with before getting the managers job. He did pretty well at that by adding key missing parts to his squad and getting them into his way of working well.

I'm starting to think that he's got a ceiling of ego/ability/reputation that his methods work with and if the club want to operate at this level he just might be out of his depth.

I do think this squad is lacking. I don't think we're miles away from being a better side though and 2 or 3 key additions could, as we've seen before, transform the sides fortunes.

Yes, no arguments with anything there.

The paradox in my mind, though, is that the more new players we bring in, the less effective McD is likely to be managing them as they're not part of the "core group" he has the relationship with. So for me if there's no/not much budget then McDs the best bet, but if there is then maybe he's not.

[melonhead]

The paradox in my mind, though, is that the more new players we bring in, the less effective McD is likely to be managing them as they're not part of the "core group" he has the relationship with. So for me if there's no/not much budget then McDs the best bet, but if there is then maybe he's not.

seemed to work pretty well when he brought in all the players he did bring in that werent part of his core group before he brought them in like griffin, kishnashvilli, ledge, gorkss, roberts, etc

[larry1971]

fall outs?
or players pissed off with playing like idiots and losing every week?



some bloke on twitter/here saying it dont make it so imo

The illusion of the "one big happy squad, all in this together" is surely wearing a bit thin .....

There's the Federici tweets and "injury" (or not)
There's the Guthrie tweets and "injury" (or not)
There's the Alex Pearce is he dropped for tactical reason or is he dropped for contract reasons saga
And there's the common knowledge that Pog has smashed the wage structure but other haven't got parity with that.

One of these things might be coincidence, but add them all up ......

IMHO the money and profile of the Premier League is just a foul and putrid place that corrupts everything it touches - and that's happened to us a season quicker than it did last time.

I was talking to one of the match day staff a couple of home games back and he told me from people he knew with in the club that there a fair few players who are unhappy at how much Pog is being paid - it's certainly some thing that will cause resentment in the dressing room but IMO it's not an excuse for the poor performances .

[Alexander Litvinenko]

The paradox in my mind, though, is that the more new players we bring in, the less effective McD is likely to be managing them as they're not part of the "core group" he has the relationship with. So for me if there's no/not much budget then McDs the best bet, but if there is then maybe he's not.

seemed to work pretty well when he brought in all the players he did bring in that werent part of his core group before he brought them in like griffin, kishnashvilli, ledge, gorkss, roberts, etc

they were only ever one at a time, though, which makes them so much easier to assimilate into the core. 3 or 4 at the same time, especially when there's a dressing room already under extreme pressure, is a much harder job. Because that's got the making of "factions" unless it's handled very cleverly indeed.

[Kingsley Junior]

Before the game I was 100% KEEP, now I would say 99% KEEP. Having endured Saturday's game at St Mary's, I would say for the first time even a tiny doubt has crept in for me, purely based on the lack of tactical flexibility he showed when we were struggling to get any possession second half. He changed personnel, but for me he should have sacrificed a striker and put five in midfield for a spell, just to try and get us in to the game. Alfie was anonymous and Roberts was struggling to get anywhere, and so one or the other could surely have been spared to allow Guthrie to come on, or to have allowed Tabb to stay on when Jobi moved to the middle. If it didn't pay off, he could have stuck a second striker on for the last 15 mins. As it was, he just moved Jobi inside and put Hunt down the left which was totally ineffective as we couldn't keep the ball for more than a pass or two.

I was reasonably happy with the first half as I felt it was fairly even, though they definitely started the brighter team. It was hard to tell too much what was going on from where I was stood as the sun was rather strong before half time!

[The Beardy Man]

For me, one of the big differences between a Coppell team and a McDermott team is that the former had good "football intelligence" - they'd take the initiative on the pitch themselves and know how to makes changes as required by the game. And SC would encourage them to do that and allow them to succeed (or fail) on their own.

But this squad, in particular, seems to be really short of intelligent footballers. Coupled with a real lack of on-field leaders I think that's got a lot to do with it.

I think that is a really good point. It was noteable under Coppell that we sought out quite a few youngsters that had come through coaching systems we clearly admired but who hadn't quite made it (plenty of ex arsenal youth players in evidence). The current crop do not have that same sort of background in general, being mostly homegrown or from the lower leagues originally. Does make you wonder if it comes down to early coaching at least in part?

that squad was built on the back of regular decent spending for our level over several seasons extending back to before pardew got us promoted to the championship, and supplemented with a few genius buys under coppell that pulled it all together, all the while backed by JMs wealth, which then disappeared
a s aresult this squad was built on bargain basement lower league players and cast offs, constantly in fire fighting mode so we couldnt really do much in the realm of long term planning.
which is why we are where we are, although imo its purely a brian based miracle we are even here in the first place

No argument on that here. I was not so much making a value judgement about it, as finding it an interesting point. I suppose the only possible way one might attribute it to being bad/good is whether it is indicative of the coaching our youngsters received on the way comparatively. I don't know that would be a fair comparison though.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Sc definitely used to look for "football brain" as one of the attributes in young players and transfer targets - I wonder if BMc values that less highly than SC as an attribute in players.

[melonhead]

Sc definitely used to look for "football brain" as one of the attributes in young players and transfer targets - I wonder if BMc values that less highly than SC as an attribute in players.

just think he has never really had the chance to move that quite as high up his priority list as coppell was allowed to

[melonhead]

Sc definitely used to look for "football brain" as one of the attributes in young players and transfer targets - I wonder if BMc values that less highly than SC as an attribute in players.

& coppell signed noel hunt you know, so.....

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Sc definitely used to look for "football brain" as one of the attributes in young players and transfer targets - I wonder if BMc values that less highly than SC as an attribute in players.

& coppell signed noel hunt you know, so.....

True, I was also remembering that he signed Lita, too.

Perhaps the requirement for a football brain is much less for strikers ... all they really have to do is score goals. But for midfielders and defenders the premium on intelligence is much higher.

[larry1971]

interesting piece in todays Daily Mail, Redknapp says that unless QPR win soon then there is quote " no point in buying anybody in January as we will already be down" with Reading only 2pts better off and 6pts from safety it's going to be pretty much the same for us .QPR, have one great advantage over us they have Redknapp, whether he was at West Ham or Portsmouth he has always had the knack, despite of the clubs position in the relegation zone of persauding and bringing in quality players to save the club from relegation. Even if Mcdermott, is in charge next month he simply does not have the same quality or personality of Rednapp to be able to bring in those quality players needed to stay up and even if we do sack Mcdermott apart from loan signings I can't honestly see who is going to want to join the club.